Rhetorical Rape

[foxgrrl]

So, last night while I was supposed to be finishing my art for Burning Man, I made the mistake of looking at Michigan Womyn's Music Festival Discussion Forums, and I get the impression that the music festival is not a safe place? Hypothetically, if I went there, would I likely be attacked? (I haven't had the time to research any of this yet, it's rather distant from my daily life. (And I seriously don't have the time for drama¹.))

But anyway, the reason why I'm writing this, is because I could not let an oft repeated statement go unchallenged. There is a common accusation that male to female transsexuals [MTFs] are men, who devote many painful years of their lives, to pretend to be women, for the purpose of raping them². And that their demand to be treated simple human respect and decency, the same as any ordinary woman, is male privilege.

As an actual, for-reals, victim of sexual assault, I find these accusations of rape highly offensive. Especially coming from people who have never experienced this. Attending a Womyn's Music Festival, just like any other woman, is not the same as someone [a man] holding you on the ground with a knife at your throat, and sticking their tongue in your mouth³. [And something else I've gotten:] Taking someone's photo, in public, without their permission is not the same as rape. It's not the same as being backed into a corner as a child and having myone's genitals fondled.

As a transsexual, I have been turned down for work; denied housing, twice!; denied medical care; denied government ID; lost friends (but not any more family than what I had already lost before); etc. all explicitly because I'm trans. (I know it's for that reason, because that's what the people doing it are telling me when they do it. It's perfectly legal to do, so why cover it up?)

As a woman, I also get people completely ignoring anything I say, or invalidating it, not believing that I can lift heavy objects, or take care of myself, or actually be skilled at anything technical, and staring at my breasts while they talk to me.

I can't even kiss someone I love, without the animal part of my hindbrain wanting to run away or attack. I have to fight myself to not disassociate when being intimate with someone. And I hate it. [Note that if you're one of the people I'm intimate with, and you didn't know, don't do anything different just because I've said this now.]

The next time I see someone accusing myself or someone else of rape rhetorically, I'm going to call them out on it. I'm not going to passively sit by and take it any more. Put up, or shut up. What the hell was your rape experience like? And how is that the same as whatever petty drama you're upset about? Oh, you never were? Well then kindly shut the fuck up.

Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself.


P.S. You know, I don't even identify as trans most of the time. I've mostly forgotten about it (except when I use the bathroom), the only time people identify me as trans, is when they're using it as a weapon against me.

P.P.S. This can not seriously be the official MWMF LiveJournal community, right, right? http://community.livejournal.com/michfest/profile

---

¹ What with working twice as hard as a man, for half the credit, because I'm a woman.
² I know this strikes most of you as being absurd, and it certainly strikes me as absurd, but there are people who very seriously believe this, which I still find hard to believe.
³ No, I don't want to talk about it, you may notice however that I'm still alive.

Comments

[badjahsensei.livejournal.com]

Actually, the last I heard of that festival was that they'd gotten so anti-trans and transphobic that their policy (mind you, this was like the mid 90's) had been revised so that only "genetic" females could attend.

I always wondered after that if there was some big bulldyke named Alice at the gate, with a cheek swab to test any suspect patrons...

[sethanikeem.livejournal.com]

To my knowledge, the genetic policy still stands. They don't want transwomen. A good friend wanted me to attend the festival wanted me to go with her. Given my own gender status, when I learned about their policies, I had to decline.

Sadly, there's a male Pagan gathering that I wouldn't mind showing up at, but they're currently embroiled in the same question that led the MWMF to lay down that genetic rule. What makes a real man? and What makes a real woman?

When I've asked all female gathers and all male gathers about which one I should attend, I generally get told that intersexed people like me should try to make our own gathers since we obviously don't fit into either of their categories. All that does is get me grumbling about misguided notions of gender purity...

--M

[elf]

Yes, they are seriously anti-trans.

I can see a point, however, in womanspace for people who were born-and-raised as women; there's a heap of baggage that you don't carry because of it, a selection of childhood worries, insecurities and traumas you didn't face. (Not that you faced less--just different. Including that annoying mess that we have to deal with roughly 1/5 of our lives for about 40 years. There's "women's mysteries" stuff that you don't have a way to connect to.)

That said, I don't agree that a gathering as large and public as this one should have that level of exclusivity. I haven't attended "women-only" events for over a decade because I don't need to define myself in opposition to the other (or an other) gender; while I know that's not the only reason for such gatherings, I have trouble sorting out why a BIG female gathering needs to promote the "women's mysteries participants only" attitude, because many of the women are not interested in exploring those mysteries & their meanings; they just want to be chicks in a safe space. And you don't threaten that space.

[foxgrrl]

I didn't have a childhood as a boy or a girl. I was the oldest in an abusive household. (And took the brunt of the abuse until I ran away, after which time the abuse fell upon my younger brother.) Does my childhood baggage count for anything? Where is my safe space?

When I was a child, I was constantly being ridiculed because I was too feminine. And I got into many embarrassing situations, because I did not understand that I wasn't a girl. After puberty I figured out my gender very quickly, and kept my gender issues a secret, I was deathly afraid that anyone would find out about them. I spent a lot of time alone, and not talking to people about how I felt. Still got lots of homosexual themed abuse in my direction. I kept rationalizing that just because I think about being a woman every single day, doesn't mean I'm transgendered… until I found out one day that, yes, actually that is exactly what that means. I was on hormones within six months.

Um, but no, I guess I haven't had the same worries and insecurities as a young girl, other than all those times when I mistakenly did the girl thing in any given situation.

[ilcylic.livejournal.com]

I pretty much just stop listening when anyone uses "womyn" non-ironically. I recommend this course for your own sanity.

But yeah, I'm right there with you with being offended by the overloading of the term "rape" to mean a whole bunch of bullshit that doesn't involve physical sexual violation, or other heavy violent, violating trauma.

[foxgrrl]

I've adopted a policy of not dismissing people as being stupid or crazy. Although I don't agree with them, I do still try to understand why they are the way they are.

[ilcylic.livejournal.com]

I really have trouble even comprehending groups which on the one hand seem very accepting and on the other are apparently fucking bastards.

Lots of people are so hurt by being beaten down that they really enjoy being the ones doing the kicking once they get on top.

[rhiannasilel.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it but I don't think I'd want to go to a festival with a group of people that have that many issues and are that narrow minded about others. What are they going to do if someone shows up that was born intersexed? Are they pretending from a past life? Give me a break. If you have that many issues about males that you are going to carry it over to MTF's then you seriously need to get years of therapy or go on an extended meditative retreat to deal with your issues. They sound like the Ellen Jamesians from "The World According to Garp".

Incidentally, the Montgomery County legislature recently passed a transgender rights bill which was challenged by a group of conservative assholes claiming "Men will be showering near young girls in the gym" and other such nonsense. I believe it's going to be on the ballot this November because the idiots got enough signatures to put it there despite the legislature passing a law unanimously to protect the rights of all transgendered people. What really bugged the hell out of me about it is I didn't hear one person say anything about FTM's showering in a men's locker room. So the idea of a MTF showering in a women's locker room is somehow wrong to these people but a FTM can shower in the men's locker room. WTF? In some countries there are no separate locker rooms or bathrooms so it's not an issue. Why are they so damn afraid? These same people let their kids watch TV and movies where people are getting their heads blown off or pointing weapons at each other but one transgendered person is a threat? I think they seriously need to get their priorities straight as parents. My goal as a parent is to teach my son to be kind and loving to all people and to not make judgments about people. It is also to be there unconditionally for my child no matter what so if he came to me one day and said he truly felt that he was a woman I'd take the steps to help him find the right doctors and make his transition in a safe and healthy way.

Sorry for the rant and the tangent, but you would think that these women would have developed a little thing called "compassion". If you want to talk about how great it is to be a woman and to show your womanhood then show that you have the compassion of a woman and a mother toward everyone and everything, not just other women. If you can only respect and show compassion to other women then you are taking matriarchy to the extremes of the patriarch societies that you rail against.

Can I kill them now?

[proudlyfallen.livejournal.com]

If you can only respect and show compassion to other women then you are taking matriarchy to the extremes of the patriarch societies that you rail against.

This is very well-said, and I just wanted to thank you for it. I was raised in an entire town that thought that way... and sometimes it feels like I'm the only sane person in the universe. Thank you.

[roadknight.livejournal.com]

It sucks that this is still going on. I can't recall ever hearing anything good about the MWMF(but then, as a bio-male, I'm neither allowed to go or have a valid opinion about an event in womynspace, so you might not want to take my word for it)

In fact my first exposure to it and Anything That Moves was the ATM issue decrying another MTF trans-woman being denied entry for not being bio-female.

[oygevalte.livejournal.com]

Word up, and props to ATM. That (the mag) was my first real connection with my bisexuality, and I'm glad it was. :D

[ivy]

Good for you for being determined to speak up; if they realize that rape can happen to any woman and that they're accusing the victims too, hopefully that will make them reconsider before saying anything so ignorant again.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

Rape happens to men and women.

[centauress.livejournal.com]

They've long been a hard point of feminist ovaries-first bigotry, and it somewhat surprises me that it's still that way today... As far as I know, they've been harassing transfolk (post op even!) for about twenty or thirty years...

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

People define safe differently.

As a sexually bisexual female I've been offended by straight women seeing my bisexuality as invisible and nul ie. seeing only male heterosexuality as being real or having passion.

[girlvinyl.livejournal.com]

WHAT

The ridiculousness quotient on a lot of this is high. Word-rape? Photo-rape? Genetics tests for attendance at music events?

This post is well thought out, which is more than I could do when faced with such mind bogglingly obscure and outlandish minutia.

To sum up: These people don't sound fun anyway.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

Hee hee... They would probably bore some people to tears and drive some folks to murderous rage... It is probably a very good thing that they go off by themselves and get their granola-earth-goddess-acoustic-guitar groove on.

[nodesignation.livejournal.com]

There's been a lot of bigotry around the whole issue, and you've stumbled upon some of the worst of it. Although, I can tell you that dirt (the one who suggested trans terrorists killed a festival goer) hasn't ever gone and isn't a part of the community there. She is only using the situation as an excuse to escalate her own intense transphobia. And that makes me wonder about the other people talking with her, too.

The festival itself, has shifted it's policy. Awkwardly, they no longer kick out trans women or refuse to sell us tickets. They do, however, ask that trans women do not come. But the "they" is specifically the higher levels of the hierarchy. The vast majority of festival goers and festival workers (my estimate is 29/30) are very positive about trans women's participation. In fact, this year a few festival goers pooled together their money to start an informal scholarship for trans women who couldn't afford to attend.

I actually went to mitch fest this year, as one of several out trans women to do so. I outed myself at every oportunity I could and I got overwhelmingly positive feedback. I even got hit on. Granted, part of that might have to do with the spaces within fest that I chose to spend my time in, but as far as the spaces I was in, the transphobia and trans ignorance I encountered was about the same I've come to expect from any space that isn't a trans space -- I've encountered worse at pride festivals.

Not to say that my experience is what all trans women would experience, and not to say that I spoke to every woman on the land. But the fact that my experience was so positive is something I'm still pretty taken aback by. I wrote about my experience here: http://www.bilerico.com/2008/08/another_trans_woman_at_mich_fest.php

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing that. It's encouraging.

[solarbird]

The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival is well known for their hatred of and contempt towards transwomen.

[nasu-dengaku.livejournal.com]

(offtopic) where are you camping this year?

[foxgrrl]

Walk-in camping, or something, most likely. I'm not officially with any camps this year. Though I might end up in one after I arrive.

[oygevalte.livejournal.com]

Even as someone who is obviously a male I have suffered the same sorts of things, re: assault. I learned to responsibly use and carry a concealed handgun. It's been less of an issue since I moved to California, but in Olympia, Washington I needed it more than once, and was glad I had it and knew how to use it.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

I've often been offended by the idea & use of Word Rape. Rape is a violent physical crime.

There are a lot of subtleties and a lot of emotional reactive components in both the MWF and in some of the commentary here in your el j, and well your post as well. Best to take a moment to try to understand... or sympathize with the pain and diversity of experience which you say you do below and I commend you for it.

As for the women at the WMF and rape? I'm sure plenty of them have been raped. Women who've experienced sexual-based violence often turn to such communities for safety and community. And well just mathematically if you take into the account of the sheer numbers of women who've experience violence along the sexual assault continuum... there are bound to be loads. Perhaps some of those women use the word rape a bit to act out or take back that idea. Rape is a crime heavily steeped in the pain of loss of control and it breeds anger and acting out.

As to people of any group wanting to have their own space which is inclusive of that group I say.... Why not? I've come across trans-women only spaces on the internet that I've wanted to be a part of, but am denied because I'm a cis-woman... I've respected that. I can certainly understand why some groups would want Q group only space and they have the right to make their own choices and own gatherings based on that.

I don't believe in homogeneity of humanity. I don't believe in homogeneity of people within genders either cis or trans or cis and trans. I think trans women do have a very different life experience and have experienced different conditioning having lived to some extent as male people (extent certainly varies) and I can see why cis-women would want their own space and why trans-women would want their own space & I can see why trans & cis women would want to be together in a space.

I believe that homogeneity is false. I also strongly disbelieve the idea that homogeneity equates with worth which seems to be part of the reaction of both trans women and WMF women on this issue. You can be both the same in some respects and different in other respects and be just as beautiful and worthy as the next person. Think of it in terms of a Venn Diagram.

There is a lot of diversity in cis gendered women. Why wouldn't their be that diversity between them. I agree that we can teach each other and love each other in lots of beautiful ways, but I don't think that means that we have to always be together or always be separate. I lean towards a contiuum of places and choices of individuals and if enough individuals want to form a group and partake in an activity I'm fine with it.

Also, the WMF crowd tends to be heavily feminist. Just as their is not homogeneity in various genetic or chemically or physically composed women... or people .. or ethnicities..... There is also no homogeneity between feminists. Take the Audrey Lorde school vs. the Sex Positive Pro-Sex Work school. All women... very different ideas. All feminists.

Many trans women in seeking to present or deepen/sharpen/find their identities as women reach for aspects of concepts of womanly appearance or correlations with femininity that many feminists are allergic to and have had forced on them in terms of their own forced or oppressive gender roles. I'm talking about make-up, heels, sexy clothes, demeanor, behavior expectations.. etc... Sometimes it feels like we're trying to get away from the "I'm still a woman even if I don't make those cosmetic choices and I don't have to make them to be a valid woman in your eyes"... while some trans-women are exacerbating those conceptions/associations/ideas by reaching for them to express their identities as women (or their conception and oft scripted conceptions of women)..... Insta-conflict! I think many in the WMF crowd would very much like to be in space that does trigger that dynamic for them.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

EDIT: From post above: Insta-conflict! I think many in the WMF crowd would very much like to be in space that does not trigger that dynamic for them.


I think the experience and perception of power & powerlessness is heavily at play both on the part of the WMF women and on the part of the trans women who feel slighted by not being invited to join cis women space. Power and powerlessness carry some pretty hefty emotional triggers.

I can conceive of some of the trans women reacting to being not invited as possibly a projected reaction to the other areas in which they have experienced pain. You bring your own experience of this yourself into this post.

I think some of it might come from the legacy of oppression and devaluation of women that cisgendered women experience. I think that some cisgendered women have some of the self-loathing that we are taught as women undervalued in society. They might fear trans women as maybe having something good they'll never have. They have the best of both worlds... they have cool male aspects and they (in their minds) have co-opted female aspects they (in their minds) have chosen to take on.

At the same time, I think a lot of trans women would gladly give up their male aspects and have gone to great lengths to cleanse themselves of any male aspects. Their is self-loathing there too and the feeling as one transwoman friend put as their body being a rotten compromise they neither asked for or want. I can see how this could cause trans women to be angry and hurt by the exclusionary policy of the WMF.

Maybe the trans-women can understand the WMF ciswomen's allergies to any nano-molecule of maleness and wishing to have a short period of respite from that where it is all XX only.

Some food for thought. Let's have love and understanding for dessert and coffee, shall we?.

"Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself." You do realize you are contradicting your argument against Rhetorical rape here.... ?

*Hugs and Love for the Difficult Bits* Lots of good work and expression here. It's good to hear your thoughts when you find time.

I think you're beautiful and a very fascinating woman.

[t-bellwether.livejournal.com]

I dissociate really easily too. Can trade notes on the phenomenon at some point if you'd like. It's a sucky feeling. :-(
(I *still* dunno wtf happened to me.)

I checked my privilege but I lost my claim slip

[ceruleanst.livejournal.com]

I've come to realize that the largely artificial latent trans tendencies I have been harboring are born of the same kind of pervasive societal messages that drive teenage girls to eating disorders. Left to myself, I would be reasonably comfortable in my own body, but having to live in this world, I more and more wish I weren't inherently disgusting and horrifying. The worst hate comes from fear. Fymynysts who call it rape whenever a man's heartbeat does not cease are one thing, but the fear of men colors the everyday perceptions of people in society at large. When people see a subjectively unattractive woman alone in a public place, she might be the object of derision and cruelty, but not fear. A man alone in a public place, with any physical signs of being over 25? Shit, everyone knows that's what a rapist is supposed to look like. Male-pattern baldness means knowing that you can't just walk up and talk to a woman who doesn't already know you, because the first thoughts in her head will not be greetings, but, rather, "How fast can I dial 911? Are there people around who will respond if I scream for help? Maybe if I gouge out his eye I can get to a safe place."

Re: I checked my privilege but I lost my claim slip

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

where do you think fear comes from?

[paka.livejournal.com]

They read as being affiliated with or run by some of the same people who used to do Take Back the Night, back home in A² - that was something that always had this proud feminists against the eeeeeeevil males thing. This is the sort of thing that used to piss me off about the local feminists back home; they never seemed interested in actual gender equality; they just wanted to be the privileged people, and it just promotes the same sad bullshit.

For my part I can't see why the minority that gets murdered in the USA for what they are, isn't woman enough to show up at this sort of thing. What, somehow evil MtFs are gonna show up and get evil testosterone on the nice womyn?

And I know this one, I've lived through something similar. Doesn't matter how badly you get shat upon, as soon as it comes time to acknowledge you as a fellow, you're not actually a minority - you're one of those evil oppressive mainstream dominant culture whatever.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

This was an old discussion when I was a babyfag. There are a lot of folks who just don't understand that their judgment that transfolk aren't really women (or men, as the case may be) is hurtful, and who are even less clear on the idea of why it's so.

They're not likely to change. Wait for them to die, and if you're lucky you'll be surprised by them before they do.

[krinndnz.livejournal.com]

I haven't anything of my own to add, sadly, but I'd like to point to a Hoyden About Town post and a Questioning Transphobia post that are both interesting arguments and good sources of trans-positive talking points.

[bridgeweaver.livejournal.com]

I hesitate to even enter this conversation, not feeling qualified in my wholly vanilla maleness, *smile* but isn't this just an example of the tendency H Sapiens has to never be content with membership in groups that share the vast majority of traits in common until we have found the "quintessential" difference that allows us to hang a feeling of superiority or us/them-ness on something? I am reminded of the joke that I can't quote, but the sense of it is someone being accosted and asked his religion in increasing detail through denominations, subdenominations, etc until the questioning has reached a ridiculous level of detail, where of course the difference between the questioner and respondent is finally found, whereupon the questioner shouts "heretic, burn in hell."

I've known about the anti-trans stance of MWF for many years, being a former resident of the beautiful but occasionally benighted state, and having a number of friends who attended. My sense of their reports was that the anti-trans people were a tiny but extremely loud minority who pissed in the pond for everyone else. I have heard that there have been near violent confrontations there, something that boiled my blood when I heard of it, but not being a person who participates in that space, I couldn't really comment.

I applaud your intention to not let these sorts of rhetorical mugging stand. I wish for you that your resolution brings you joy and peace.

[romonster.livejournal.com]

FFS, are they *still* doing that BS? I remember being appalled when I first heard about it around 1977.

[sezjasaneh.livejournal.com]

wow...I cant possibly believe people could say that. Sorry hon you get to have the 'pleasure' of hearing this shit.

And who lists 'anti-rape' as an interest for a female's music concert? That's kinda f-ed up if you ask me. Those two should NOT correlate.

[shatterstripes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have always had the impression that the MWMF is not a safe place for MtF trannies - pre- or post-op. Even if (as some people above say) it's mostly the hard-line old-school radical separatist feminists who organize the thing who have a serious problem with accepting transwomen as being women, I know I'd still be looking over my shoulder, constantly afraid of such a confrontation, for the whole time if I went there.

And wow, reading through some of the threads there reinforces that.

As to the whole 'MtFs are still potential rapists' thing... me, I'm not really interested in putting my dick in anyone, even people who want me to do that; it feels creepy and weird unless I get into a VERY specific mind-state. I am certainly not interested in going through all that for someone who hates me as much as some of these womyn do. I have never really discussed this in a formal situation with other MtFs, but I have the impression that for most of us, being the penetrator is deeply weird and conflicted!

[oygevalte.livejournal.com]

Everyone is a potential rapist, period. We're all potential murderers, bigots, hate-mongers, and whatever else you'd like to consider.

All of us. Every single one. Gender is not a definer here; my mother raped me as much as my father did, she's not magically absolved because she has breasts and no penis.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

You summed up a lot of the reasons I've been not-down-with-"Michigan" (and the set of ideas its come to be shorthand for) for quite some time. It's kind of perverse how fascist attitudes spawn fascist attitudes, huh?

Invalidating someone else's experiences because they differ from one's own in a way one cannot quite wrap one's head around seems to be a pretty primitive reaction to me, but then, what do I know?

(BTW, we're pretty much moved. You should visit us in Oakland.)

[kitten-goddess.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry you've run into so many batshit crazy asswipes. *hugs*