Rhetorical Rape
Aug. 23rd, 2008 06:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
foxgrrlSo, last night while I was supposed to be finishing my art for Burning Man, I made the mistake of looking at Michigan Womyn's Music Festival Discussion Forums, and I get the impression that the music festival is not a safe place? Hypothetically, if I went there, would I likely be attacked? (I haven't had the time to research any of this yet, it's rather distant from my daily life. (And I seriously don't have the time for drama¹.))
But anyway, the reason why I'm writing this, is because I could not let an oft repeated statement go unchallenged. There is a common accusation that male to female transsexuals [MTFs] are men, who devote many painful years of their lives, to
As an actual, for-reals, victim of sexual assault, I find these accusations of rape highly offensive. Especially coming from people who have never experienced this. Attending a Womyn's Music Festival, just like any other woman, is not the same as someone [a man] holding you on the ground with a knife at your throat, and sticking their tongue in your mouth³. [And something else I've gotten:] Taking someone's photo, in public, without their permission is not the same as rape. It's not the same as being backed into a corner as a child and havingmyone's genitals fondled.
As a transsexual, I have been turned down for work; denied housing, twice!; denied medical care; denied government ID; lost friends (but not any more family than what I had already lost before); etc. all explicitly because I'm trans. (I know it's for that reason, because that's what the people doing it are telling me when they do it. It's perfectly legal to do, so why cover it up?)
As a woman, I also get people completely ignoring anything I say, or invalidating it, not believing that I can lift heavy objects, or take care of myself, or actually be skilled at anything technical, and staring at my breasts while they talk to me.
I can't even kiss someone I love, without the animal part of my hindbrain wanting to run away or attack. I have to fight myself to not disassociate when being intimate with someone. And I hate it. [Note that if you're one of the people I'm intimate with, and you didn't know, don't do anything different just because I've said this now.]
The next time I see someone accusing myself or someone else of
Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself.
P.S. You know, I don't even identify as trans most of the time. I've mostly forgotten about it (except when I use the bathroom), the only time people identify me as trans, is when they're using it as a weapon against me.
P.P.S. This can not seriously be the
¹ What with working twice as hard as a man, for half the credit, because I'm a woman.
² I know this strikes most of you as being absurd, and it certainly strikes me as absurd, but there are people who very seriously believe this, which I still find hard to believe.
³ No, I don't want to talk about it, you may notice however that I'm still alive.
But anyway, the reason why I'm writing this, is because I could not let an oft repeated statement go unchallenged. There is a common accusation that male to female transsexuals [MTFs] are men, who devote many painful years of their lives, to
pretendto be women, for the purpose of raping them². And that their demand to be treated simple human respect and decency, the same as any ordinary woman, is
male privilege.
As an actual, for-reals, victim of sexual assault, I find these accusations of rape highly offensive. Especially coming from people who have never experienced this. Attending a Womyn's Music Festival, just like any other woman, is not the same as someone [a man] holding you on the ground with a knife at your throat, and sticking their tongue in your mouth³. [And something else I've gotten:] Taking someone's photo, in public, without their permission is not the same as rape. It's not the same as being backed into a corner as a child and having
As a transsexual, I have been turned down for work; denied housing, twice!; denied medical care; denied government ID; lost friends (but not any more family than what I had already lost before); etc. all explicitly because I'm trans. (I know it's for that reason, because that's what the people doing it are telling me when they do it. It's perfectly legal to do, so why cover it up?)
As a woman, I also get people completely ignoring anything I say, or invalidating it, not believing that I can lift heavy objects, or take care of myself, or actually be skilled at anything technical, and staring at my breasts while they talk to me.
I can't even kiss someone I love, without the animal part of my hindbrain wanting to run away or attack. I have to fight myself to not disassociate when being intimate with someone. And I hate it. [Note that if you're one of the people I'm intimate with, and you didn't know, don't do anything different just because I've said this now.]
The next time I see someone accusing myself or someone else of
raperhetorically, I'm going to call them out on it. I'm not going to passively sit by and take it any more. Put up, or shut up. What the hell was your rape experience like? And how is that the same as whatever petty drama you're upset about? Oh, you never were? Well then kindly shut the fuck up.
Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself.
P.S. You know, I don't even identify as trans most of the time. I've mostly forgotten about it (except when I use the bathroom), the only time people identify me as trans, is when they're using it as a weapon against me.
P.P.S. This can not seriously be the
officialMWMF LiveJournal community, right, right? http://community.livejournal.com/michfest/profile
¹ What with working twice as hard as a man, for half the credit, because I'm a woman.
² I know this strikes most of you as being absurd, and it certainly strikes me as absurd, but there are people who very seriously believe this, which I still find hard to believe.
³ No, I don't want to talk about it, you may notice however that I'm still alive.
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no subject
Date: 2008-08-24 05:53 am (UTC)There are a lot of subtleties and a lot of emotional reactive components in both the MWF and in some of the commentary here in your el j, and well your post as well. Best to take a moment to try to understand... or sympathize with the pain and diversity of experience which you say you do below and I commend you for it.
As for the women at the WMF and rape? I'm sure plenty of them have been raped. Women who've experienced sexual-based violence often turn to such communities for safety and community. And well just mathematically if you take into the account of the sheer numbers of women who've experience violence along the sexual assault continuum... there are bound to be loads. Perhaps some of those women use the word rape a bit to act out or take back that idea. Rape is a crime heavily steeped in the pain of loss of control and it breeds anger and acting out.
As to people of any group wanting to have their own space which is inclusive of that group I say.... Why not? I've come across trans-women only spaces on the internet that I've wanted to be a part of, but am denied because I'm a cis-woman... I've respected that. I can certainly understand why some groups would want Q group only space and they have the right to make their own choices and own gatherings based on that.
I don't believe in homogeneity of humanity. I don't believe in homogeneity of people within genders either cis or trans or cis and trans. I think trans women do have a very different life experience and have experienced different conditioning having lived to some extent as male people (extent certainly varies) and I can see why cis-women would want their own space and why trans-women would want their own space & I can see why trans & cis women would want to be together in a space.
I believe that homogeneity is false. I also strongly disbelieve the idea that homogeneity equates with worth which seems to be part of the reaction of both trans women and WMF women on this issue. You can be both the same in some respects and different in other respects and be just as beautiful and worthy as the next person. Think of it in terms of a Venn Diagram.
There is a lot of diversity in cis gendered women. Why wouldn't their be that diversity between them. I agree that we can teach each other and love each other in lots of beautiful ways, but I don't think that means that we have to always be together or always be separate. I lean towards a contiuum of places and choices of individuals and if enough individuals want to form a group and partake in an activity I'm fine with it.
Also, the WMF crowd tends to be heavily feminist. Just as their is not homogeneity in various genetic or chemically or physically composed women... or people .. or ethnicities..... There is also no homogeneity between feminists. Take the Audrey Lorde school vs. the Sex Positive Pro-Sex Work school. All women... very different ideas. All feminists.
Many trans women in seeking to present or deepen/sharpen/find their identities as women reach for aspects of concepts of womanly appearance or correlations with femininity that many feminists are allergic to and have had forced on them in terms of their own forced or oppressive gender roles. I'm talking about make-up, heels, sexy clothes, demeanor, behavior expectations.. etc... Sometimes it feels like we're trying to get away from the "I'm still a woman even if I don't make those cosmetic choices and I don't have to make them to be a valid woman in your eyes"... while some trans-women are exacerbating those conceptions/associations/ideas by reaching for them to express their identities as women (or their conception and oft scripted conceptions of women)..... Insta-conflict! I think many in the WMF crowd would very much like to be in space that does trigger that dynamic for them.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-24 05:53 am (UTC)I think the experience and perception of power & powerlessness is heavily at play both on the part of the WMF women and on the part of the trans women who feel slighted by not being invited to join cis women space. Power and powerlessness carry some pretty hefty emotional triggers.
I can conceive of some of the trans women reacting to being not invited as possibly a projected reaction to the other areas in which they have experienced pain. You bring your own experience of this yourself into this post.
I think some of it might come from the legacy of oppression and devaluation of women that cisgendered women experience. I think that some cisgendered women have some of the self-loathing that we are taught as women undervalued in society. They might fear trans women as maybe having something good they'll never have. They have the best of both worlds... they have cool male aspects and they (in their minds) have co-opted female aspects they (in their minds) have chosen to take on.
At the same time, I think a lot of trans women would gladly give up their male aspects and have gone to great lengths to cleanse themselves of any male aspects. Their is self-loathing there too and the feeling as one transwoman friend put as their body being a rotten compromise they neither asked for or want. I can see how this could cause trans women to be angry and hurt by the exclusionary policy of the WMF.
Maybe the trans-women can understand the WMF ciswomen's allergies to any nano-molecule of maleness and wishing to have a short period of respite from that where it is all XX only.
Some food for thought. Let's have love and understanding for dessert and coffee, shall we?.
"Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself." You do realize you are contradicting your argument against Rhetorical rape here.... ?
*Hugs and Love for the Difficult Bits* Lots of good work and expression here. It's good to hear your thoughts when you find time.
I think you're beautiful and a very fascinating woman.
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-24 06:26 am (UTC)Hell, I've known two identical twins reared in the same house who ended up two very different people..... One very homo. One very hetero.
You're welcome to be unhappy with my support of people making choices for their space. I'm not going to insist I come to your integration everywhere and in every instance party.
I see it as a reason to create more spaces. I see it as different spaces have different potentials and if huddling occurs in one place for one period of time among one group it doesn't mean that the people not in the huddle are bad. Perhaps learnings could be taken from separate spaces and brought to integrated spaces to be shared.
Would you really say that trans-women should not have or are not entitled to create their own trans-women space? This entire post talks about the diversity in experience of trans-women from other people. Maybe they might want space to feel safe as they define it or space to discuss their experiences without having to run through a Trans 101 for others.
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-24 09:24 am (UTC)I agree that inclusion and connection and unity is wonderful and a great place to work on things when it's organic for all involved. I think for a small percentage of the MWF folks it's wedging with intent to segregate & that's disheartening. I think for most, it's just wanting to create a space that speaks to a certain set of needs and experiences. I know there are a lot of feminist and women's groups who are very accepting and pro-active in advocating for trans women and men. I guess I'm an inclusionist in the sense that I would include all combinations and flavors of spaces in the potential set of empowered choice. Sometimes nurturing and camaraderie can happen within and without of spaces. Sometimes when we learn to respect and accept each other from behind the fences around our safe spaces and we get that safety fix.... we can let more people into those spaces and share and nurture a new safety and learn more about each other. Trust is built slowly.
From my distant and unknowing vantage point.... Sounds like what was at hand for your infertile friend is that she had a narrow and very specific need and didn't want to focus outside of that and for her the transwoman's experience of not being able to give birth was outside of the focus she probably pretty desperately needed... It's hard when the irrationality and volatility of emotions are involved.
Enjoyed your thoughtful commentary :-)
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-24 05:36 pm (UTC)I wonder if your bi-poly-pagan-kink-etc-XX drew that line because of her own issues about her own sense of womanhood or femininity? I wonder if she was feeling less of a woman and hence more man-like or more of a combo of male and female so trans-like because of her infertility. Maybe that is what her trigger was. Maybe she feared what really is a continuum rather than a binary.
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-29 10:37 pm (UTC)Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-30 01:31 am (UTC)If this were a school, a government thing, a law or something of that nature I'd be against the limits they impose. However, as this is a social space I do believe they have the right to create it and define it as they see fit. I don't think there is anything wrong with calling them to the carpet. I think people should speak their mind. I think speaking one's mind is different than disallowing people to define and assemble in social space. They're calling it the same thing they've been calling it for years. They're calling it as they who create it see fit. They shouldn't have to specify down to chromosomes or parts of stages of post-op surgery or hormone levels or intersexed conditions in their title... They are perfectly allowed to be dead wrong in their title. It's theirs.
What if a group of trans women wanted to have a festival and not call it "Transwomen Festival" what if they wanted to call it a women's festival because they want to embrace their womanhood and see the trans part as just a bi-product of wrong birthbody. Should they not be able to do it? Should they not be able to gather by themselves and not have cis women there. Should they have to define it all out in a 47 word title. Or is it ok if they put their specifications that ciswomen are not allowed. Don't you think transwomen might have some very valid reasons for wanting a festival of their own? Shouldn't they be allowed to celebrate or manifest their own beauty and experience as they see fit?
Who decides who gets to gather anyway? Should it be a law?
If trans & cis women want to have a festival where they both attend then they should create one themselves instead of trying to force the MWF people to let them in theirs.
Personally a trans cis woman fest sounds like a helluva lot more fun to me than the MWF....
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-29 10:34 pm (UTC)Wow, that's pretty much the opposite of what she said. Sounds like the very sort of reactionary response you're arguing is "acceptable", when in fact I think people need to own their own emotions and not just project them on anyone who happens to hit a trigger of theirs. Food for thought.
Re: I think trans women do have a very different life experience
Date: 2008-08-29 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-29 10:28 pm (UTC)1) IF you want a bio-women only space, then have the balls to call it that. If you title yourself something that opens up the membership beyond that, and then you refuse admission or safe space to people who fit the description of your title, expect to get some shit for it, as it should be.
2) I have to take some serious issue with the "Insta-conflict" crap as well. I'm sure many, many more bio-women wear heels and makeup than TG women, but I'm also sure that lipstick lesbians would be welcome at the festival. Sounds like someone is just trying to justify something that's unjustifiable (intentional discrimination without an actual reasonable basis, just based on reactionary emotions and/or prejudice).
3) You are justifying being bad because something bad was done to you. And that's not justifiable. If it was, all those murderes on death row who claimed at their trial they were only acting out because of bad childhoods should and would be put back on the streets.
I was raped, many times, by a male AND a female, both my parents. I have not turned to crime, I have not raped others, I have not done violence against others, and I have certainly never tried to justify any bad actions on my part because of what happened to me as a child. PEople are capable of being whatever they want to be, and as adults, as 100% *responsible* for who, how and what they are. Letting people off of their own badness because they received badness at some point relieves people of responsibility for their actions -- probably including most of the people who actually raped the women whose behavior you are excusing. Works both ways...
no subject
Date: 2008-08-29 11:04 pm (UTC)1) You might have a point there on the cis-gendered women only space point. Perhaps they should have the uterus to call it that up front in the title rather than bury it down in the criteria for entry. Or they might just have their own opinions about whether or not they consider transwomen as women. They are entitled to be wrong and have their own party, imho. Just like the KKK. Certainly, others are entitled to give them shit for it... as progressive activists do.
2) I'm sure there is plenty of conflict and diversity on that issue over the heels and make up stuff. I'm sure there are plenty of women who don't like the tracksuited butch thing. I'm sure there are plenty who don't care for the Dolled Up thing either be they trans or cis lesbian or straight. I'd bet it carries more of a sting though when it's straight women though... Thing is women aren't so much pressured into wearing sneakers which are better for our feet than heels. We may get insulted when not wearing all the fashion conscious sexed up stuff, but we get less objectified. We're less likely to be considered justifiably rape-able when we're dressed down....
More in a bit. Must take a phone call.....
no subject
Date: 2008-08-30 01:23 am (UTC)The point I was trying to make about the Insta-Conflict stuff is that often trans women use dressing up in traditionally conceived feminine costume is that they are using that to portray femininity or femaleness. I think MWF women would be put off by that as the feminist movement has been working to show that women are more than their outward appearance. That was my point there. It's as if women are relegated to just their outward appearance.... their shape and the people pleasing accoutrements we are expected to wear. People who use those tools to gain power or appear feminine appear noxious to some strains of feminist.... be they cis or trans women.
A prime example might be the Hooters women. (or Hooters Girls as they are commonly called) They make me ill. It's like they are undoing a lot of women are more than T&A stuff that feminist have fought hard to accomplish. They are "Uncle Toms" in my perception.
3) I am not justifying anything. I presented some theories on what some of the players motivations or thought process might be. I do believe that people should be able to create and define spaces as they choose. I do justify that. However, I'm not justifying acting wrong because one has been wronged. I was presenting the ideas that that is what a lot of people who've been wronged do. People who've been wronged or abused or raped often have triggers to stimuli which resemble the stimuli that hurt them. Maybe it is easier for some of the MWF women to pick on transwomen because they are women.... and not men... because they are part of a minority and marginalized group. They make for easier less empowered targets... That happens in other marginalized and oppressed groups. For example, African American women have taken a lot of abuse due to the pent up aggressions of societally disempowered African-American men. That's one social science theory. Certainly I'm not justifying it. I'm pointing out some of the manifestations of human nature. As i did in my previous posting.
Do you think it's a coincidence that so many people in prison come from abusive backgrounds? If not, then why aren't there more happy childhooded adults on death row?
Not everyone who has been abused becomes an abuser or criminal. No. I too have not become an abuser or criminal. I do have my triggers though. I do know that when circumstances approach resemblance of what has hurt me I do feel pain. I feel that pain because of the neural connections that were formed from the abuse. I know both types of folks. Those who've had it rough and not turned to doing bad stuff. I know folks who've had it rough and turned to roughing up others. Not everyone has the same strength or personal make up that leads them to the right choices. Not everyone has the same environmental factors to help them or worsen them along.
I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I've been providing my opinions on what some of the thought processes might be. I have some knowledge of some of the dynamics on a macro scale as I used to work as a rape crisis counselor. Also, I've studied feminist studies and have been an active member of the feminist movement for 20 years. I've met a few folks, read a few things.... I stand by theorizing on the potential thought processes at hand.
I stand by the constitutional right of assembly.