Rhetorical Rape

[foxgrrl]

So, last night while I was supposed to be finishing my art for Burning Man, I made the mistake of looking at Michigan Womyn's Music Festival Discussion Forums, and I get the impression that the music festival is not a safe place? Hypothetically, if I went there, would I likely be attacked? (I haven't had the time to research any of this yet, it's rather distant from my daily life. (And I seriously don't have the time for drama¹.))

But anyway, the reason why I'm writing this, is because I could not let an oft repeated statement go unchallenged. There is a common accusation that male to female transsexuals [MTFs] are men, who devote many painful years of their lives, to pretend to be women, for the purpose of raping them². And that their demand to be treated simple human respect and decency, the same as any ordinary woman, is male privilege.

As an actual, for-reals, victim of sexual assault, I find these accusations of rape highly offensive. Especially coming from people who have never experienced this. Attending a Womyn's Music Festival, just like any other woman, is not the same as someone [a man] holding you on the ground with a knife at your throat, and sticking their tongue in your mouth³. [And something else I've gotten:] Taking someone's photo, in public, without their permission is not the same as rape. It's not the same as being backed into a corner as a child and having myone's genitals fondled.

As a transsexual, I have been turned down for work; denied housing, twice!; denied medical care; denied government ID; lost friends (but not any more family than what I had already lost before); etc. all explicitly because I'm trans. (I know it's for that reason, because that's what the people doing it are telling me when they do it. It's perfectly legal to do, so why cover it up?)

As a woman, I also get people completely ignoring anything I say, or invalidating it, not believing that I can lift heavy objects, or take care of myself, or actually be skilled at anything technical, and staring at my breasts while they talk to me.

I can't even kiss someone I love, without the animal part of my hindbrain wanting to run away or attack. I have to fight myself to not disassociate when being intimate with someone. And I hate it. [Note that if you're one of the people I'm intimate with, and you didn't know, don't do anything different just because I've said this now.]

The next time I see someone accusing myself or someone else of rape rhetorically, I'm going to call them out on it. I'm not going to passively sit by and take it any more. Put up, or shut up. What the hell was your rape experience like? And how is that the same as whatever petty drama you're upset about? Oh, you never were? Well then kindly shut the fuck up.

Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself.


P.S. You know, I don't even identify as trans most of the time. I've mostly forgotten about it (except when I use the bathroom), the only time people identify me as trans, is when they're using it as a weapon against me.

P.P.S. This can not seriously be the official MWMF LiveJournal community, right, right? http://community.livejournal.com/michfest/profile

---

¹ What with working twice as hard as a man, for half the credit, because I'm a woman.
² I know this strikes most of you as being absurd, and it certainly strikes me as absurd, but there are people who very seriously believe this, which I still find hard to believe.
³ No, I don't want to talk about it, you may notice however that I'm still alive.

Comments

[badjahsensei.livejournal.com]

Actually, the last I heard of that festival was that they'd gotten so anti-trans and transphobic that their policy (mind you, this was like the mid 90's) had been revised so that only "genetic" females could attend.

I always wondered after that if there was some big bulldyke named Alice at the gate, with a cheek swab to test any suspect patrons...

[elf]

Yes, they are seriously anti-trans.

I can see a point, however, in womanspace for people who were born-and-raised as women; there's a heap of baggage that you don't carry because of it, a selection of childhood worries, insecurities and traumas you didn't face. (Not that you faced less--just different. Including that annoying mess that we have to deal with roughly 1/5 of our lives for about 40 years. There's "women's mysteries" stuff that you don't have a way to connect to.)

That said, I don't agree that a gathering as large and public as this one should have that level of exclusivity. I haven't attended "women-only" events for over a decade because I don't need to define myself in opposition to the other (or an other) gender; while I know that's not the only reason for such gatherings, I have trouble sorting out why a BIG female gathering needs to promote the "women's mysteries participants only" attitude, because many of the women are not interested in exploring those mysteries & their meanings; they just want to be chicks in a safe space. And you don't threaten that space.

[sethanikeem.livejournal.com]

To my knowledge, the genetic policy still stands. They don't want transwomen. A good friend wanted me to attend the festival wanted me to go with her. Given my own gender status, when I learned about their policies, I had to decline.

Sadly, there's a male Pagan gathering that I wouldn't mind showing up at, but they're currently embroiled in the same question that led the MWMF to lay down that genetic rule. What makes a real man? and What makes a real woman?

When I've asked all female gathers and all male gathers about which one I should attend, I generally get told that intersexed people like me should try to make our own gathers since we obviously don't fit into either of their categories. All that does is get me grumbling about misguided notions of gender purity...

--M

[ilcylic.livejournal.com]

I pretty much just stop listening when anyone uses "womyn" non-ironically. I recommend this course for your own sanity.

But yeah, I'm right there with you with being offended by the overloading of the term "rape" to mean a whole bunch of bullshit that doesn't involve physical sexual violation, or other heavy violent, violating trauma.

[rhiannasilel.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it but I don't think I'd want to go to a festival with a group of people that have that many issues and are that narrow minded about others. What are they going to do if someone shows up that was born intersexed? Are they pretending from a past life? Give me a break. If you have that many issues about males that you are going to carry it over to MTF's then you seriously need to get years of therapy or go on an extended meditative retreat to deal with your issues. They sound like the Ellen Jamesians from "The World According to Garp".

Incidentally, the Montgomery County legislature recently passed a transgender rights bill which was challenged by a group of conservative assholes claiming "Men will be showering near young girls in the gym" and other such nonsense. I believe it's going to be on the ballot this November because the idiots got enough signatures to put it there despite the legislature passing a law unanimously to protect the rights of all transgendered people. What really bugged the hell out of me about it is I didn't hear one person say anything about FTM's showering in a men's locker room. So the idea of a MTF showering in a women's locker room is somehow wrong to these people but a FTM can shower in the men's locker room. WTF? In some countries there are no separate locker rooms or bathrooms so it's not an issue. Why are they so damn afraid? These same people let their kids watch TV and movies where people are getting their heads blown off or pointing weapons at each other but one transgendered person is a threat? I think they seriously need to get their priorities straight as parents. My goal as a parent is to teach my son to be kind and loving to all people and to not make judgments about people. It is also to be there unconditionally for my child no matter what so if he came to me one day and said he truly felt that he was a woman I'd take the steps to help him find the right doctors and make his transition in a safe and healthy way.

Sorry for the rant and the tangent, but you would think that these women would have developed a little thing called "compassion". If you want to talk about how great it is to be a woman and to show your womanhood then show that you have the compassion of a woman and a mother toward everyone and everything, not just other women. If you can only respect and show compassion to other women then you are taking matriarchy to the extremes of the patriarch societies that you rail against.

Can I kill them now?

[roadknight.livejournal.com]

It sucks that this is still going on. I can't recall ever hearing anything good about the MWMF(but then, as a bio-male, I'm neither allowed to go or have a valid opinion about an event in womynspace, so you might not want to take my word for it)

In fact my first exposure to it and Anything That Moves was the ATM issue decrying another MTF trans-woman being denied entry for not being bio-female.

[ivy]

Good for you for being determined to speak up; if they realize that rape can happen to any woman and that they're accusing the victims too, hopefully that will make them reconsider before saying anything so ignorant again.

[foxgrrl]

I've adopted a policy of not dismissing people as being stupid or crazy. Although I don't agree with them, I do still try to understand why they are the way they are.

[centauress.livejournal.com]

They've long been a hard point of feminist ovaries-first bigotry, and it somewhat surprises me that it's still that way today... As far as I know, they've been harassing transfolk (post op even!) for about twenty or thirty years...

[foxgrrl]

I didn't have a childhood as a boy or a girl. I was the oldest in an abusive household. (And took the brunt of the abuse until I ran away, after which time the abuse fell upon my younger brother.) Does my childhood baggage count for anything? Where is my safe space?

When I was a child, I was constantly being ridiculed because I was too feminine. And I got into many embarrassing situations, because I did not understand that I wasn't a girl. After puberty I figured out my gender very quickly, and kept my gender issues a secret, I was deathly afraid that anyone would find out about them. I spent a lot of time alone, and not talking to people about how I felt. Still got lots of homosexual themed abuse in my direction. I kept rationalizing that just because I think about being a woman every single day, doesn't mean I'm transgendered… until I found out one day that, yes, actually that is exactly what that means. I was on hormones within six months.

Um, but no, I guess I haven't had the same worries and insecurities as a young girl, other than all those times when I mistakenly did the girl thing in any given situation.

[proudlyfallen.livejournal.com]

If you can only respect and show compassion to other women then you are taking matriarchy to the extremes of the patriarch societies that you rail against.

This is very well-said, and I just wanted to thank you for it. I was raised in an entire town that thought that way... and sometimes it feels like I'm the only sane person in the universe. Thank you.

[girlvinyl.livejournal.com]

WHAT

The ridiculousness quotient on a lot of this is high. Word-rape? Photo-rape? Genetics tests for attendance at music events?

This post is well thought out, which is more than I could do when faced with such mind bogglingly obscure and outlandish minutia.

To sum up: These people don't sound fun anyway.

[foxgrrl]

Something that was running through my head as I was reading that message board. Was that these women [the tranny-bashing ones] want equality — or more precisely, to no longer be under the oppressive power of the male patriarchy. But the way that they're going about this is keeping them powerless.

(Arrgh, I really don't have time to write right now…)

There is a type of power that people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. had… <Description of that goes here> <discourse on how discrimination against the group below you isn't going to push you up> <dividing people up drains power> >how to do things right<

[alcira.livejournal.com]

I feel angry that the world is not a sensitive place, its not as sensitive as I am and never will be. Someone once told me in college to 'get used' to people being abusive/to myself being abused for whatever stupid reason they would come up with, my family being from another country, my disabilities, hell, even my interests not being good enough for some people. That's bullshit. I'm so shocked and yet not surprised due to my ever-increasing cynicism, that some people would give other people homosexual themed jokes. I mean, I'm a biological woman, I will be my whole life. True be told in our society, men do have it easier. I used to want to be a man for the privilege of being seen as stronger, taken seriously, even have your words respected more. Some people have no idea they are sexist and I come from two very machista cultures that have forgotten what the female aspect of creation is like. I gave up on the idea of being a man though when I think about the body hair, so I realized I have made my peace with myself as a girl.

I don't think people should demand women-only environments. I have this thing against being around only-women. Women can become catty, backstabbing little cruelty-mongerers anyway. We are the worst enemies of ourselves, those of us who allow men to dominate anyway are pretty bad at that. I'm afraid of women actually, which is why I'm open to transgenders because I know you have the best of both worlds. I like gender-mixed environments though, because the idea of all-women groups annoy me.

I wound up not going to the high school of my choice though because I actually wanted to go to an all-girls school knowing the boys would give me a really hard time. They did. The decision of what school I was supposed to go to was made for me. Transgenders in tech actually make women look really good if you're in tech since too many men are in that field anyway, its very male dominated as is business, and other fields in general. We had that Harvard president way back when say that women weren't wired to study mathematics. I grew up often hearing from my parents that I wasn't supposed to be interested in engineering because I wasn't good at math anyway. They really pressured me actually. I had to give up on that too. I stuck with liberal arts to get the- you can work for any company BA, and now the economy is going up in flames as I write this. I'm scared for the future.

[nodesignation.livejournal.com]

There's been a lot of bigotry around the whole issue, and you've stumbled upon some of the worst of it. Although, I can tell you that dirt (the one who suggested trans terrorists killed a festival goer) hasn't ever gone and isn't a part of the community there. She is only using the situation as an excuse to escalate her own intense transphobia. And that makes me wonder about the other people talking with her, too.

The festival itself, has shifted it's policy. Awkwardly, they no longer kick out trans women or refuse to sell us tickets. They do, however, ask that trans women do not come. But the "they" is specifically the higher levels of the hierarchy. The vast majority of festival goers and festival workers (my estimate is 29/30) are very positive about trans women's participation. In fact, this year a few festival goers pooled together their money to start an informal scholarship for trans women who couldn't afford to attend.

I actually went to mitch fest this year, as one of several out trans women to do so. I outed myself at every oportunity I could and I got overwhelmingly positive feedback. I even got hit on. Granted, part of that might have to do with the spaces within fest that I chose to spend my time in, but as far as the spaces I was in, the transphobia and trans ignorance I encountered was about the same I've come to expect from any space that isn't a trans space -- I've encountered worse at pride festivals.

Not to say that my experience is what all trans women would experience, and not to say that I spoke to every woman on the land. But the fact that my experience was so positive is something I'm still pretty taken aback by. I wrote about my experience here: http://www.bilerico.com/2008/08/another_trans_woman_at_mich_fest.php

[solarbird]

The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival is well known for their hatred of and contempt towards transwomen.

[bluegodjanus.livejournal.com]

You are. Don't worry about it, though.

[nasu-dengaku.livejournal.com]

(offtopic) where are you camping this year?

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

I've often been offended by the idea & use of Word Rape. Rape is a violent physical crime.

There are a lot of subtleties and a lot of emotional reactive components in both the MWF and in some of the commentary here in your el j, and well your post as well. Best to take a moment to try to understand... or sympathize with the pain and diversity of experience which you say you do below and I commend you for it.

As for the women at the WMF and rape? I'm sure plenty of them have been raped. Women who've experienced sexual-based violence often turn to such communities for safety and community. And well just mathematically if you take into the account of the sheer numbers of women who've experience violence along the sexual assault continuum... there are bound to be loads. Perhaps some of those women use the word rape a bit to act out or take back that idea. Rape is a crime heavily steeped in the pain of loss of control and it breeds anger and acting out.

As to people of any group wanting to have their own space which is inclusive of that group I say.... Why not? I've come across trans-women only spaces on the internet that I've wanted to be a part of, but am denied because I'm a cis-woman... I've respected that. I can certainly understand why some groups would want Q group only space and they have the right to make their own choices and own gatherings based on that.

I don't believe in homogeneity of humanity. I don't believe in homogeneity of people within genders either cis or trans or cis and trans. I think trans women do have a very different life experience and have experienced different conditioning having lived to some extent as male people (extent certainly varies) and I can see why cis-women would want their own space and why trans-women would want their own space & I can see why trans & cis women would want to be together in a space.

I believe that homogeneity is false. I also strongly disbelieve the idea that homogeneity equates with worth which seems to be part of the reaction of both trans women and WMF women on this issue. You can be both the same in some respects and different in other respects and be just as beautiful and worthy as the next person. Think of it in terms of a Venn Diagram.

There is a lot of diversity in cis gendered women. Why wouldn't their be that diversity between them. I agree that we can teach each other and love each other in lots of beautiful ways, but I don't think that means that we have to always be together or always be separate. I lean towards a contiuum of places and choices of individuals and if enough individuals want to form a group and partake in an activity I'm fine with it.

Also, the WMF crowd tends to be heavily feminist. Just as their is not homogeneity in various genetic or chemically or physically composed women... or people .. or ethnicities..... There is also no homogeneity between feminists. Take the Audrey Lorde school vs. the Sex Positive Pro-Sex Work school. All women... very different ideas. All feminists.

Many trans women in seeking to present or deepen/sharpen/find their identities as women reach for aspects of concepts of womanly appearance or correlations with femininity that many feminists are allergic to and have had forced on them in terms of their own forced or oppressive gender roles. I'm talking about make-up, heels, sexy clothes, demeanor, behavior expectations.. etc... Sometimes it feels like we're trying to get away from the "I'm still a woman even if I don't make those cosmetic choices and I don't have to make them to be a valid woman in your eyes"... while some trans-women are exacerbating those conceptions/associations/ideas by reaching for them to express their identities as women (or their conception and oft scripted conceptions of women)..... Insta-conflict! I think many in the WMF crowd would very much like to be in space that does trigger that dynamic for them.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

EDIT: From post above: Insta-conflict! I think many in the WMF crowd would very much like to be in space that does not trigger that dynamic for them.


I think the experience and perception of power & powerlessness is heavily at play both on the part of the WMF women and on the part of the trans women who feel slighted by not being invited to join cis women space. Power and powerlessness carry some pretty hefty emotional triggers.

I can conceive of some of the trans women reacting to being not invited as possibly a projected reaction to the other areas in which they have experienced pain. You bring your own experience of this yourself into this post.

I think some of it might come from the legacy of oppression and devaluation of women that cisgendered women experience. I think that some cisgendered women have some of the self-loathing that we are taught as women undervalued in society. They might fear trans women as maybe having something good they'll never have. They have the best of both worlds... they have cool male aspects and they (in their minds) have co-opted female aspects they (in their minds) have chosen to take on.

At the same time, I think a lot of trans women would gladly give up their male aspects and have gone to great lengths to cleanse themselves of any male aspects. Their is self-loathing there too and the feeling as one transwoman friend put as their body being a rotten compromise they neither asked for or want. I can see how this could cause trans women to be angry and hurt by the exclusionary policy of the WMF.

Maybe the trans-women can understand the WMF ciswomen's allergies to any nano-molecule of maleness and wishing to have a short period of respite from that where it is all XX only.

Some food for thought. Let's have love and understanding for dessert and coffee, shall we?.

"Really, all this accusation of rape is, is verbal bludgeon for attacking and gaining power over people, in a sense… a form of rape itself." You do realize you are contradicting your argument against Rhetorical rape here.... ?

*Hugs and Love for the Difficult Bits* Lots of good work and expression here. It's good to hear your thoughts when you find time.

I think you're beautiful and a very fascinating woman.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

"some big bulldyke named Alice at the gate"

but THEY are the ones who are perjorative and condescending towards others not in their group.....

Yeah..

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

I can still see the picture of you as a child. You were beautiful then.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

Very cool of you Foxy G.

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

"go on an extended meditative retreat to deal with your issues"

I think that's what they intend the WMF to be.... and probably what they hope to accomplish there in some part.

"If you want to talk about how great it is to be a woman and to show your womanhood then show that you have the compassion of a woman and a mother toward everyone and everything, not just other women."

To equate compassion with womanhood is a sexist statement. Compassion is human. To bring motherhood into it is also a bit sexist and a bit narrowing of womanhood.... All women are not mothers and we are not all required to be soft and compassionate and motherly as an expression of our femaleness. I agree compassion is good. I'm saying that it's masculine and feminine.... ie human. I also think that compassion can take many forms and just because it doesn't always occur in the widest set possible doesn't mean it's absent.

Can I kill them now?

What The Fuck?

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

"Women can become catty, backstabbing little cruelty-mongerers anyway."

Totally sexist statement. Men can absolutely be this way too.

"I don't think people should demand women-only environments. I have this thing against being around only-women......because the idea of all-women groups annoy me"

So they shouldn't have their space because all women environments are bad in your opinion? So what if you were annoyed by gay people? What if you were even taught from childhood that gay sex is the devil's work? Should gay people not be allowed to have sex? Or hang out in gay people space?

Sounds like you've internalized some woman-hatred yourself. The very same woman-hatred that was wrongly inflicted upon your desires to go into the field of your first choosing. Sounds like you're acting out in the same way that the WMF women are and some of the trans-women are....