How to act around photographers

[foxgrrl]

1. If you see a photographer in public, don't go up to them and ask/demand money for taking pictures. The next person who does this to me I'm going to consider to be a mugger and treat accordingly.
2. If you see a photographer in public, don't put your hand in front of or on the lens as they're trying to shoot, and whatever you do don't try to grab the camera from their hands. The next time someone does this to me I'm going to consider them an assailant and react accordingly.
3. If you see a photographer in public, don't demand that they give you the film from their camera, that's theft and coercion. The photos belong to the photographer; The law is very explicit about this.

For the last year or so, it's been becoming psychologically more and more difficult for me to take photos. Between the above sorts of things, and lots of people going "OMG!OMG! Don't take my picture!" whenever I'm anywhere nearby. It's just not fun anymore, it actually kinda hurts a little to even photograph now. I'm refusing to let this stop me, but photography has become an effort of willpower.

Twice this year¹, I've been physically assaulted. (Yes, reported to the police, people arrested.) So far I've fought my way out of these situations, with only a split lip, mild concussion, and lots of bruises. And I've had several other close calls. I'm really really starting to get a hair trigger in certain situations. Particularity if I sense I'm about to be violated in some way. For many years, I've just shrugged this sort of stuff off, which has always ended up badly for me — probably why I kept getting into abusive relationships. Really, I've got to take a stand to not let people get away with hurting me anymore.

---

¹ Edit: Twice in the past FOUR MONTHS.

Comments

[raycek.livejournal.com]

I've always felt massive paranoia surrounding people photography.

I suppose even if I myself wouldn't mind a picture taken. Not everyone cant get behind enjoying the attention.

Just the opposite, in fact.

Im glad you're solidifying your stance on these things.

Everyone think's they're so famous. Funny thing is.. they aint.

[yetanotherbob.livejournal.com]

Odd question: Less so than I used to be, but I'm often very self-concious about photos of me, especially at conventions (when not in costume) so much so that sometimes I wear a hoodie so that I can hide my face if need be. As a general rule, should a simple "Please don't take a photo of me" suffice if the desire so arise?

[foxgrrl]

I'm not sure if holding my hand up to the photo is any worse than having my photo taken without permission, but I wouldn't be trying to touch the camera.

I haven't had any problems with the photographee doing this. I'm talking about people sneaking up from behind or alongside me, while I'm looking through the lens. And then putting their hand over it.

So, I'm about to take a photo of my girlfriend, and while I'm looking at them, and blind to anything outside that tunnel. A complete stranger comes up next to me and puts their hand in front of the lens, and tells me to ask permission first. This is the kind of bullshit is what I'm talking about.

[thraxarious.livejournal.com]

I personally don't mind being photographed by you or anyone else. I really hope folk come to chill out some, and the idiots who pull this crap get a good smack in the face. That's just not right to do.

You take wonderful pictures, and it would be a shame for something to be such a chore and stresser for you.

[thewerewolf.livejournal.com]

While I can understand your POV, in all fairness, you have to look at it from the other side as well.

Privacy is a rapidly disappearing property in our modern world. There's been a slow movement from the idea that you're a private person with a right to general privacy to one where there is no privacy anyway, most people are still working from the assumption that their privacy is assumed unless willingly given up.

That means that people are more and more taking a defensive posture when it comes their public visibility. The assumption is (and to a degree has to be) that anyone trying to collect information (which is what a photograph is) has malicious intent.

I know that I don't like having my picture taken. But I divide this into two zones - intentional and unintentional. If you're taking a picture of a scene and I just happen to be in it, no issue. If you take a picture OF me with intent, then unless I give permission, I'll try to avoid you (well, unless I don't mind, of course). To me, someone taking my picture with intent but without my permission is a serious invasion of my privacy. For people who live by their appearances (not me, of course - but say a famous actor), you're also infringing on their livelihood.

Essentially, I don't believe you, as a photographer, have a right to take a picture of anyone, anything, anywhere. Conversely, I don't have a right to absolute privacy either, so there are times when you can take a picture of me and I really don't have a say in it.

The trick is for BOTH of us to learn when those times are and act accordingly.

You might be frustrated by people not being more accepting of your desire to take photos, but they may be equally frustrated by people not being more accepting of their wish NOT to be photographed.

[thewerewolf.livejournal.com]

Ahhh.. this is different and kind of bizarre. I had a similar problem with people at cons (usually art directors) who would challenge my right to photograph my own drawings in people's sketch books. They would insist I show I have permission - to which I point out that it's my own art, and I obviously have tacit permission since I have the damned book in my hands - what - they think I mugged someone and then stood the middle of a public room to photograph the sketch book? I ended up just suggesting that they get lost and find a life.

Some people are just clueless.

[kitten-goddess.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry you were hurt! *hugs*

Why would people demand the film from your camera, unless they're police? That's weird! And grabbing someone's camera is theft. Assholes.

BTW, I can explain the whole "OMG!OMG!Don't take my picture!" bit, because I used to do that until you mostly got me over that particular habit.

I'm assuming many people have only had bad experiences when being photographed (school pictures, group pictures, DMV/passport pictures, etc.) The photographers in these situations are mostly untalented and require the subject to sit still and smile on cue for about five minutes. This is very difficult for anyone who is not a model to pull off. It is nearly impossible to do so while surrounded by other people and standing hunched over to form rows. Not to mention that some photographers use as many as three different cameras, which requires more standing still and smiling on cue.

After all that effort, the photos come back and they look like shit.

By the time people graduate from high school, they have built up a lifetime of bad memories from being photographed for class pictures and the like. Not major trauma, mind you, but enough experience to assume that any time they are photographed will be a pain. Hence the "OMG! OMG! Don't take my picture!"

You were the second good photographer to take my picture. Thank you for showing me that being photographed can be fun. I actually like being photographed now.

[proudlyfallen.livejournal.com]

As someone who did that just the other day on the boardwalk... Is the intentional privacy thing still an issue if your face isn't in the photograph? I have a couple pictures I took of a rainbow and a couple standing in front of it, but there's no way to tell who they are. Should I have asked permission first?

I'm pretty lucky -- my biggest problem so far has been the people who see me, freeze, and either paste an obviously fake smile on their face or start making weird gestures. When it's my friends it's OK, but at something like Band Day when I have an actual job to do... Well, that's just frustrating. I'm supposed to be taking pictures of what's happening, not portraits of people who showed up.

[ivy]

That's completely obnoxious. You have never been anything less than completely considerate of my desire not to be photographed. I've always appreciated that about you; you are one of the most conscientious and polite photographers I know. I'm so sorry that you're running into people being such aggressive jerks.

[veleda.livejournal.com]

you are a great photographer Julia..and ..well fuck everyone else.. i know easier said then done.

[primaldog.livejournal.com]

Personally...I despise getting my picture taken, and I've had complete strangers do that sort of thing to me. I personally think it's rude. I don't go to cons or related events, but whenever I'm at a public venue, it really, really annoys me when complete strangers come around with cameras. Privacy is such a precious commodity in this world these days, I will stick up for my right to have that. That and, due to certain security concerns and job-related circumstances, people can't be photographed. This is the case with several people I know and work with. They should have the right, however, to attend a public event without fear of their privacy being stolen from them by a camera lens.

That said, no one has any right to put their hands on you or your property. At all. Ever. That is not right, and I'm sorry you're experiencing this. Some people have very extreme reactions to this sort of thing, which are uncalled for and not justified in any sense. It's all a matter of politely requesting that one's image not be published or otherwise disseminated, or edited out. Maybe ask for some sort of contact information to make sure that the request is being honored. Then again, given the society we live in, one can only expect so much--you can't always avoid having your picture taken--like being seen in public, and that's a fact of life.

That said, you do take wonderful photos. My suggestion? Carry a weapon--a taser or pepper spray, and use accordingly.

[primaldog.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, you're going to have interpersonal relationship issues if you don't make efforts to respect people's privacy. You need to be vigilant about checking with people about whether or not taking their photo is okay, especially at a private event like a private party.

This. Right here. Exactly.

[krinndnz.livejournal.com]

I'm sad to hear that the fun is draining out of something you enjoy. It's best when your professionalism - and I think your behavior is very appropriate - is reciprocated with politeness and negotiation. We have these concepts of professionalism, politeness, and negotiation so that we don't have to jump to coercion and and physical conflicts. I wish more people used the path of negotiation - the path of coercion is a big loser for society overall.

Speaking of which, fuck the TSA, and fuck anyone else who exalts security theatre, especially at the expense of ordinary citizens.

[heinousbitca.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is that there are a lot of us who would greatly prefer not to be photographed, and there are a lot of people who think messing with photographers is how to do it. I can only speak for experience, in that i would rather have my toenails ripped out than have my picture taken (and no, i don't have a toenail-ripping-out fetish), for a very large corpus of reasons that are hard to explain. It's not meant to be hurtful, it's not a lack of trust of you specifically, but is a very large part of mutual respect, more on that infra.

I've found that "please don't take my picture, thank you" does fairly well and failing that I go the hell away. I don't go to cons, i avoid a lot of things solely because being photographed in a specific context without knowing the mechanics (like a passport/driver license/green card picture, which i know how to deal with) really skeeves me, and i know plenty of folks who come from the same context. I'm not Mary Sue-ing it, though some of my objections to being photographed are very personally specific and some are very, very general.

Anyways, there are people who don't respect that one not photograph them. I don't feel like that's how you roll, though, so i think you're getting tarred and feathered for the sins of others. The problem is, really, that there are people who are dumb enough to attempt physical contact, but i will give you a tip that a friend of mine has given me: Carry a few empty 35mm cylinders. Hand them to people who demand your film. She got out of a moron coming at her with a crowbar with this method, and plus it exploits that the primo idiots don't even get the difference between a film camera and a digital camera.

The annoying part, really, is that they have way more to fear from some jackhole with a point-and-shoot than a skilled photographer with a collection of lenses, but the latter freaks them out worse. Go figure.

[jovino.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna demand money from you when you take a picture of my hand and then demand the film from your digital camera.


It sucks that you have to become defensive and reactionary. I've even been in situations like this while in costume. It's like an instant invitation to fuck with and/or punch me. I honestly don't get what's going through some peoples' brains sometimes.

Being aware of your surroundings in advance and knowing when you are amongst friends so you can let down your defenses once in a while may help you be more at ease and bring balance to your life.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

You are essentially correct with 1) [panhandling] 2) [simple assault] / [strongarm robbery] and 3) [attempted strongarm robbery]

If I am in a situation where I ask someone to not take a photograph of me, and they do so anyway, I immediately take a photograph of them. I have also been known to politely remind public officers that they have no expectation of privacy in the performance of their duties, as long as I am not interfering in their duties or posing a threat to their safety. It is necessary to take great care in this as different rules apply, particularly if the photographs are evidence in a criminal case. (Even if one knows that these will somehow disappear between the scene and the evidence room, nominally the police do have power to safeguard *cough cough* confiscate and lose *cough* "evidence" from the scene.)

The correct legal remedy against inappropriate or undesired photography is the criminal trespass laws. At a science fiction convention, for example, it is the responsibility of the convention staff to confront unauthorized photography and ask that it cease. If it does not cease, their recourse is to lawfully eject the photographer from the convention space.

If the photographer is not trespassing, and national security laws or regulations do not apply (photography of military facilities), there is no remedy against them taking photographs. If the photographer is trespassing, the remedy is civil litigation. Obviously if one intends to sue, for identification purposes a trespassing photographer should always be arrested and turned over to the police. (The police will always let them go, but their identity will now be public record.)

I would like to add that credibly threatening to touch someone without their permission completes the crime of assault, and actually doing so completes the crime of battery. Grabbing an object out of their hands completes the elements for strongarm robbery, and if the item is over $400 in value (which many cameras are), grand theft as well. Two felonies in ten seconds.

>> Really, I've got to take a stand to not let people get away with hurting me anymore.

Good for you. Just take care to keep your responses reasonable and measured. Defensively pushing away someone who suddenly gets up in your face is different from cold-cocking someone who puts a hand in front of your camera lens.

[ff00ff.livejournal.com]

That all sounds ridiculous. You need to take pictures around people who don't think they're so important.

[zeeth_kyrah]

Oh, for -- that's not just something to consider assault, that IS assault in many jurisdictions! Make some noise, lay down smack, and call for the cops.

[zeeth_kyrah]

This, yes. The last time someone focused on me specifically, I noticed and turned my head to be more anonymous (which is hard for someone who dresses in a distinctive coat and happens to be riding an uncommon model of motor scooter, but it's the face that identifies). But if it had been more of a crowd scene, I don't think I would have had a problem with it.

[aatheus.livejournal.com]

Wow, just... wow. That is going for the Public-Spirited Asshole title. What is their problem?

Where have you had such rude behavior occur, in general? I generally take photos at conventions, and have yet to encounter such an overt jerk.

[aatheus.livejournal.com]

Blah. You take wonderful photos are are always (to my experience) respectful of peoples' wishes to not be photographed. You do not deserve to be assaulted or even panhandled like you've described.

What I wonder is what makes these morons feel that they have the right to physically assault a photographer, especially if you are not even taking THEIR picture. It must come from some over-inflated need to be a privacy vigilante, or something.

That *sucks*

[the-ogre.livejournal.com]

In a very not good way. I, for one, like your photos a lot.

Unfortunately, I don't really have much in the way of suggestions (and my first instinct is to offer such).

IN any case you do have my sympathy.

[thewerewolf.livejournal.com]

*Should* you? From the situation as you describe it, I'd say no. You weren't photographing them with intent, and it should be clear from the fact that there's a rainbow that you probably were intending to photograph that.

But if they looked concerned, me personally? I'd go over and show them the picture and make sure they're ok with it - or I'd wait for them to move on. I have a huge collection of photos I've taken around the world and you'd swear the entire planet is unpopulated :)

I guess my point is that it's simply not black and white. You have to use good judgement based on the situation. Like, if I'm in the lobby of a hotel where a Furcon is happening - I really don't feel obligated to get permission to shoot because it's *assumed* that will happen. Same for most fursuits. But even then, I tend to ask first.

On the other hand, if I were in the washroom.. :)

Or if someone is clearly unhappy with my taking a picture of them...

Then I'd ask or wait.

As for people acting strangely... well, heh... yeah, some people get really weirded out by photographers. Sometimes covert is best. :)

[anaisdjuna.livejournal.com]

Oh Honey!
I don't want people to hurt you either!!! I hope you don't get separated from photography by this. I'm sure in ultra-precious California you run into some people who react badly about being around a photographer. Some of it is understandable (not the assailing people parts). I can understand people not wanting to end up in some public forum or them feeling weird about photography. I know there are laws that allow for photographing in public and I believe that art should be allowed to flourish. I hope there's a way to figure it out. Maybe having a copy of the law on you or something?

[porphyre.livejournal.com]

That, lovely, is pure and simple BAD and you should shout and scream, you have every right to. I've never even heard of such a thing happening up here in Canadaland, and I find it appalling anyone could even remotely think such behaviour is appropriate.